Tuesday 11 September 2012

The more I read...

...the bigger I want to make the A+ logo I've inserted into my avatar.

I'll briefly re-state something I've said before; it doesn't bother me in the slightest that some people disagree with atheism+, or don't wish to use the label, or what-have-you. I disagree with most of my friends on at least one point, if not many. Disagreement is not only okay, I personally view it as absolutely necessary.

But in so many of the pieces I've read from the detractors of a+ since it coalesced have not stopped with mere disagreement. Certainly I've seen a few articles posted about why someone thought the label was silly, or they didn't like it, or wouldn't be using it themselves and why they thought the rest of us shouldn't use it. Again, these are not the problem.

The problem comes from the volume of posts that take this disagreement and turn it into flaming, personal attacks. Who spew bile on people they disagree with, and then try to excuse it by saying things like "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". As though merely daring to post an entry on one's personal blog is an invitation to receive the most vile, hateful attacks one can imagine, and that this is how things should be.

The sad thing is, this is indeed how it is at the moment. Daring to post on a topic like this is, in fact, an invitation for the trolls to seep out of the woodwork. But I disagree that this is how it should be. This is why, more and more, I want to be part of atheism+. I despise the rationalizations, the excuses, from people who appear to want nothing more than to vomit all over the place, particularly from those who dare call themselves rationalists.

And then they have the gall to call us bullies? It's incredible.

I refuse to associate with these people. I refuse to be part of a community whose primary method of argument is to hurl insults and hate, whether or not said insults have anything to do with the topic at hand (calling Jen a slut, for example; what does that have to do with her stand on sexism in the atheist community?). I want to be part of a community that refuses to cater to the lowest common denominator, a community which believes in basic human decency towards everyone - every person, not every idea.

I want to be part of atheism+.

So yes, disagree. But please, leave the infantile tactics at home.

5 comments:

  1. I follow the atheist movement by proxy and have been hearing about the range of reactions to A+ and the attacks against Jen McCreight and I am just AMAZED. And not in a good way.

    The opportunity to refine our thinking about atheism (or anything) to incorporate hard-won, agreed-upon truths about human society (for instance, that women are not naturally deserving of harassment) is fucking awesome! And smart. And sophisticated. And damned appropriate to the evolution of humanity in general.

    That a bunch of so-called rationalists would decry such refinement says a lot about where they're at in life and more to the point, what they value about calling themselves atheists.

    When I hear about "atheists" attacking people for no good reason, it makes me think that they are simply the kind of people who like to attack people for no good reason. If someone is an asshole, any label that lends some credibility to his/her asshole behaviour is surely very handy. It might make an asshole feel more important, more legitimate, and other people might listen to that asshole for a little while - until they find out that person is just an asshole and doesn't really stand for anything. Except maybe assholery. Which is fine, but that's NOT the same as atheism.

    A+ is brilliant. Anyone who doesn't want to be with the brilliance can do as they like.

    Just, try not to be an asshole.

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  2. Atheism is about non belief in a deity. Coopting that to mean something more makes people wary. It's not just Atheism, it's Atheism... plus. Plus what? Plus a bunch of "social justice" issues that most people would agree with. So... why A+?

    The invective is on both fronts. The A+ crowd is on record as name-calling people who disagree with them. Note that's not "their opponents, who hate atheism and social justice", but people who dislike adding something else to atheism.

    The invective from the A+ crowd is surprising. It's divisive. Be A+, or else be labeled as someone who hates women. Be A+, or be labeled as a rape apologist. Be A+, and we'll get rid of all of those terrible Atheist people.

    It's ugly. No one likes being coerced into being nice. I think I'm a good person. I don't need to be told I need to be A+, or else I'm bad.

    That's where the invective comes from. The "get off of my lawn" attitude. These are my beliefs, and I'm happy with them. I'm not going to subscribe to something (even if I agree with it), when the proponents say "do it OR ELSE".

    I think the entire A versus A+ movement is ridiculous. Hence my name.

    Just call yourself an Atheist who isn't an asshole, and who doesn't rape women. See? Not hard.

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    1. "Plus what? Plus a bunch of "social justice" issues that most people would agree with. So... why A+?"

      There are those who might disagree with you that 'most' people would support these issues. I'm not one of them, but it's become increasingly obvious that whether it's 'most', 'many', or 'a vocal minority', it's out there in our community, and it's strong.

      Why A+? For me, at least, it kills two birds with one stone. It firmly declares me to be a nonbeliever, something that I'm very interested in declaring, and at the same time loudly declares that I oppose the prejudices and bigotry that sometimes crop up in our circles.

      "The invective is on both fronts. The A+ crowd is on record as name-calling people who disagree with them."

      This is true enough, and I've spoken out against in it a few previous posts. Name-calling and invective has come from those on my side of the fence as well. However, some things that - to the best of my knowledge - have not come from the a+ crowd include death threats, rape threats, posting pictures of people's houses and addresses online, attempting to contact people's workplaces to try and disrupt their professional lives, suggesting that so-and-so's parents were failures because so-and-so espouses a position that one disagrees with, trivialization of rape, and so on down the line.

      It's entirely possible that this behaviour or behaviour like his has been going on and I simply haven't seen it, but I think this unlikely. So. There's a pretty big difference between calling someone a douchebag, a la Richard Carrier, and, say, threatening someone with rape.

      I oppose the name-calling, on both sides. But more than that, I oppose the utter vitriol and bile that has been hurled in the direction of the women spearheading this movement. I'm using those words entirely too much lately, but I can't think of any better ones. THIS is what we're fighting against, and it was going on long before a+ was conceived; indeed, repulsive hatred like this was the reason a+ came to be. Name calling I dislike, and oppose it. Things like the above I revile, and they have to stop. Bar none.

      "No one likes being coerced into being nice. I think I'm a good person. I don't need to be told I need to be A+, or else I'm bad."

      I agree with you. I devoted a significant chunk of a previous post to this; there are people who don't want to identify with a+, for whatever reason, and that's fine. No problem! I know for a fact that Greta Christina has posted an article with much the same theme. Continue being an atheist, no plus needed, all is well.

      It's an opt-in movement. I wish to declare my stance on the issues as vocally as I can, and so onto my avatar goes the A+ logo. You don't; this does not, in my mind, automatically make you a bigot or a misogynist, it merely means you don't want the label. Cool. I'll battle alongside you against those who disagree with this point.

      But there are those who are not ready to simply refuse to join, and leave it at that. There are those who have a bone to pick, who DO despise women and take what appears to be perverse glee in shouting it from the rooftops. These are the people flooding inboxes with graphic threats and so on. And these people oppose the label because it says their behaviour is unacceptable. That's something I have no problem saying; by the tenor of your post, I believe you'd agree with me on that bit at least.

      "Just call yourself an Atheist who isn't an asshole, and who doesn't rape women. See? Not hard."

      There's a lot of irony to be had in writing a comment saying that one dislikes the feeling of being forced to adopt a label, and ending it with this. I like the a+ label, so I'll use it. You don't, so don't.

      See? Not hard.

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  3. "There's a lot of irony to be had in writing a comment saying that one dislikes the feeling of being forced to adopt a label, and ending it with this."

    Well, no. I *suggest* that the label isn't necessary. I used a logical argument to explain why.

    I don't like being *forced* to wear a label. That force is via name-calling and shaming.

    Being unable to distinguish the two methods is a serious problem. Many people in Atheism+ share that problem. So I am *scared* of Atheism+, and want to avoid it like the plague.

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    1. And honestly, we're most of us not even suggesting that you use our label. As I said, it's opt-in, and again, I'm actually totally on your side against those in the a+ movement who attempt to paint anyone who doesn't like the plus as haters, or bigots, or that they should take the label on pain of shaming.

      If many people in the atheism+ movement share that problem then, well, that's a problem, and it needs to be addressed. I'll add my voice to those attempting to address it.

      However, much as that is a problem that exists, I still see the outpouring of rage as a far greater one. Nobody should have to endure that, particularly not from a group calling itself rational and reasonable.

      I'm beginning to think you and I agree on more points than we disagree on.

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